Interview with Former Vice-President of The Republic of Sudan Gen. George Kongor Arop.  George Kongor Arop was born in 1947 in Kongor, Tonj. He attended Tonj Intermediate School and Rumbek Secondary School. In 1971 he graduated from police college. As a police officer, he was posted throughout the country, to towns such as Medani, Kosti, Wau, Juba, and Renk. From 1991 to 1994 he was the governor of Bahr el Ghazal, and from 1994 to 2000 he was the second Vice President of Sudan. 2001 to 2004 he was a member of the assembly in Khartoum. In 2006 he became President of the African National Congress.

 

Adhieu: Thank you so much for taking this interview for the second edition of Ramciel Magazine. I will be asking about your past position as second Vice President, your place in the Ramciel Magazine (ANC) party, and your thoughts about politics in general. As second Vice President, did you feel the position was ceremonial given the current circumstances at the time, or did you believe you had the opportunity to make decisions and affect change for South Sudan?

Gen. George: I was appointed as second Vice President, and this position was always allotted to by Southerners. It was not ceremonial. You have to get into the presidency system, and when I was appointed, there were many challenges. There was war in the country, and most of the people were displaced. The social fabric of the Southerners was broken because they were displaced from the environment where they were raised, and they faced many difficulties.

I had to see to it that the Southerners who went to the North of the country had a conducive atmosphere created for them. I had to work day and night to see that they had lodged, that they could live peacefully and get what they needed from me or the government. I had to supervise the security, too. As Vice President, I responded when, from time to time, there were problems of local drinks, people being harassed, and ladies being taken to prisons. Still, we intervened and, although we did not stamp it out completely, we had to reduce it. The education of their children was one of the first things I faced as well. I had to make what I would call ‘displaced schools’ for them near their lodging. This was not a handout from our brothers in the North. It was real work. Two, when they [students] reached the level of universities, I had to create what is called a single intake because our children were not competing.

Adhieu: They were not competing?  Gen. George: Well, they were not competing because they’d usually get very low percentages, and as such, we had to create a special intake process. They were being cheated in the areas of medicine, engineering, and many others. So I convinced my colleagues in the presidency and made a decision that was welcomed. We managed to graduate almost over 5000 of those individual intake students. Those you see in the offices here did not come from East Africa, America, or London. So if we were a décor, we wouldn’t have educated our people, we wouldn’t have protected our people. We helped them cross the river to the other side, with very minimum casualties. We were not a décor. We managed. If we were a décor or whatever people think about us, we wouldn’t have managed to bring peace, which we are now enjoying. It was our pressure in the National Congress Party where we pushed what we wanted. Every time when we met with people, when they brought us proposals or initiatives from other areas, we usually told them the efforts fell short of self-determination and that the people of the South would not accept those initiatives.

Adhieu: You mean self-determination in terms of the country?  Gen. George: Yes, self-determination. Self-determination means you decide on your fate. Either you become independent as we have now achieved or have to make unity with your choice, but not the choice of other people. So this is where we succeeded. That’s why we inside and people outside were having one intention and one name. It was obvious that was the only way out for Southerners, and that is ultimately what Southerners unanimously agreed upon. Also, when I was Vice President, I was responsible for the Southern Desk. I was checking on how we could really develop the South. I can assure you that we did much. It was on this base which we laid, in education, in security, in politics, where we now have the peace we are forging. If we were just a décor, as people may say, there wouldn’t have been peace. However, all of us were on one wavelength, and that is why I believe that we maintained the social fabric until we achieved what we have now.

Adhieu: That is a really good answer because you have shown that the position you had was not just for the name, but you had work to do, you had to manage the South. You had the chance to make major changes that our country is based on now. On that same note, what were some of the biggest challenges that you faced in this role?

Adhieu: So you mean that politicians fighting The northern government were in the Northern government?  Gen. George: There was war in the country, and Southerners believed that you cannot be in a government that is fighting your people. Northerners think that all Southerners are the same, whether they are in the government or not. It was a big challenge. But it had to be done. We swallowed the bitter pains and continued with the journey. Here we are.

 Adhieu: There was a lot of criticism. What was your view on the Southern Movement, the SPLMA?   Gen. George: When this war started, it did not start out of anywhere. It was a decision of Southerners who met and said, “We have been talking with the North, and the North holds out the positions of change. The only way is to fight.” It was a decision made by Southerners, whether you were in or outside, it was a decision. Some took arms, others provided food. Others took the role of giving information on how to fight the war. So there was a division of roles.

Those who decided to go and fight is equally the same as the person who decided to give you food or information on how to fight the war. So we usually asked ourselves, everybody had a role. If you went and died in the field, you died for the cause of the South. If you were arrested, and then you were slaughtered because you were giving food to an enemy or giving information, you have died for the cause of the South. So Southerners were doing one thing inside and outside in the diaspora, they were doing one thing. I do not believe that anybody is more equal than others, everybody is the same. If someone considers that only the one who held a gun did much, then that is unfortunate.

So when the referendum came, 98% Southerners voted for independence. This shows that whether you were a farmer or brewing already for your child to go to school so he or she could become a doctor or an engineer, we also consider him a liberator. So, we have now gained our independence. It was just our white paper, which brought it. We should see clearly that everyone in the South did his job, whether in the diaspora or inside the country or fighting, all of us, did a good job.

Adhieu: I appreciate that, because I was born in the diaspora, and my parents also played their role there. My next question is, can you tell me a little bit about the creation of Warrap State, because I know you were once the governor of Bahr el Ghazal, and then Warrap was created while you were Vice President?   Gen. George: Well, no. In 1991, I became a governor of Greater Bahr el Ghazal. I went at a time when the social fabric was completely destroyed. The town (Wau) was divided into three zones; one for Dinka, one for Jur, one for Fertit. People were butchering themselves. I went when things were critical. Because I was going to an area where I knew people, I knew the composition in society, so I held a lot of talks. Because of the movement outside, Dinka was considered sympathizers of SPLM without exception.

The other side, the Fertit, were considered loyal to the government. So when I went, I got these three groups. I met with the Dinka elders, and the first question they asked me was, “How did you come here? When a governor comes here, he must work according to what we say.” My simple answer was, “I am a government, and no citizen can ask Akuma, what is he doing? The government only consults them and gives them the program.”

The Fertit also came, they told me, “George, you are not a governor.” “What am I?” “You’re a Dinka, you’re a Dinka governor.” “Why, because I am a Dinka?” “This is how we are seeing you.” Adhieu, I told them, “By day I am a governor, by night I am a governor, I will give you the program.” I gave them the program. The program, how I brought peace to Wau, was, first of all, I had the confidence. I enjoyed the confidence of the people because I had been a police officer there, and I treated all the population with equality. So I appreciated their support. I began with a women’s conference, and simply they denied all the insecurity and hatred happening among all the groups, and they came out to support me. When a lady supports you, your information goes very fast.

So, my message was that I needed unity and security. I needed people to abandon the way they were thinking so automatically; this message reached those who were fighting because they were the mothers of the youth who were fighting. They were the wives of the elders who were complicating things. So the message came out very quickly and very clearly. The next was the youth who were being used. I had a conference for them, and they also gave me their support to bring peace, development, and social cohesion among the tribes. They also denied those elders who were messing up their security.

 Gave them a program. Their program, which is almost 16 hours, they only sleep 8 hours, and we work for 16 hours. There was no room for drunkenness, idleness, playing dominos, and many other things. Every weekend, I came and gave them a lecture. I said every weekend on Saturday we must have a rally, and in this rally, everybody must speak out because I know what they usually say in your fences, so I came and cleared all those doubts which people are talking about and cleared them. Wau became peaceful. People became united. When people were divided, coming to your point, people decided to decentralize Sudan into different states. I was against it.

Adhieu: The creation of ten states?   Gen. George: I was against the re-division of Southern Sudan. I made it very clear that I was not for it because of the reasons I stated.

Adhieu: Because it divides people?  Gen. George: It divides people on ethnicity, and when you are divided as a tribe, people will go after you, and if your neck is very stiff, they break it. I did not want that way of re-division of the South. With this, my resistance, well, they managed to divide the South into nine states. After I learned they divided it into nine states, and they were about to declare, what is called now Warrap, people of Toni were taken to Rumbek.

People of Gogrial were taken to Aweil. So it became my concern. Gogrial was a sub-district of Tonj. The division that was made, you find a big district is amalgamated, with sub-districts. Rumbek and Yirol. Raja and Wau. Why do that? By that time, I was relieved because you cannot control a big region, and when it is divided into three, you cannot become a governor of three states. It took us a hell of a long time with my brothers like Ali Osman, Al-Bashir, I was asking them, “Did I not perform well or what? Because my people are being divided. If I performed well, then my people cannot be dispersed. Some are going to Aweil, and they have no connection with Aweil.” I found that I was being punished, my people are being punished for something they did not do. At the end of the day, they said, “George, we have again amalgamated Gogrial and Tonj to be one state. What do you say about it?” I was not a selfish politician, I will not take the state to Tonj, it would look very absurd because I was the one who was governor, and if I take it to my own area, it would not be wanted by the people. So I decided, let us take it to Warrap because Warrap is equidistant.

Adhieu: Is Warrap Town in Tonj?   Gen. George: Yes. Warrap has a history, that’s where all the chiefs were appointed by the British. It is also equidistant when you go to the area of Madien Anyuon, it is almost 100 miles. If you go to Tongliep, it is almost 70 miles. If you go to Mayen Juur, the end of the Gogrial district, it is almost 60 or 70 miles, so I got it. This is the history of how we created Warrap. So it was really shameful when people of Tonj made an agreement with people of Gogrial, to give them the capital, and we get the governorship. It was really a mockery. You cannot sell your land because of positions.

Adhieu: That is what happened, because now it is still called Warrap state, and we still did not have the capital or the governor?  Gen. George: Yes, Anei Kueindit became the governor, and Warrap was taken to Kuajok. It was really shameful. Later on, Anei was dismissed, he did not even spend a year. Then Bol Madut came, he also did not spend a year. After that, they lost the promise.

Adhieu: Only now, when we got our own state, we managed to do something to some degree. We will come onto that later. This is a very direct question; do you have any ambition for the highest office, or are you thinking of standing for elections after the transitional period?  Gen. George: *laughs* It is too early to talk about it, and it is not my decision.

Adhieu: Is Warrap Town in Tonj?   Gen. George: Yes. Warrap has a history, that’s where all the chiefs were appointed by the British. It is also equidistant when you go to the area of Madien Anyuon, it is almost 100 miles. If you go to Tongliep, it is almost 70 miles. If you go to Mayen Juur, the end of the Gogrial district, it is almost 60 or 70 miles, so I got it. This is the history of how we created Warrap. So it was really shameful when people of Tonj made an agreement with people of Gogrial, to give them the capital, and we get the governorship. It was really a mockery. You cannot sell your land because of positions.

Adhieu: That is what happened, because now it is still called Warrap state, and we still did not have the capital or the governor?  Gen. George: Yes, Anei Kueindit became the governor, and Warrap was taken to Kuajok. It was really shameful. Later on, Anei was dismissed, he did not even spend a year. Then Bol Madut came, he also did not spend a year. After that, they lost the promise.

Adhieu: Only now, when we got our own state, we managed to do something to some degree. We will come onto that later. This is a very direct question; do you have any ambition for the highest office, or are you thinking of standing for elections after the transitional period?  Gen. George: *laughs* It is too early to talk about it, and it is not my decision.

Adhieu: It is not your decision, it is your people’s decision, if they want you to go, you will go. Are you currently a political participant or an observer? Do you feel you are actively participating in the politics of South Sudan?  Gen. George: Yes, ANC is very active. We are not doing petty politics, which are connected with positions or tribal affiliations, no. It is the African National Congress which is dealing with national issues that affect the nation. These are the issues we are dealing with. Today, we will not blow trumpets, but we will have to say that we exist in the schools, we exist in the universities, in the streets, we are everywhere. We deal with national issues such as peace, security, the economy of the country, which is crumbling… these are the basics we are all interested in.

 Adhieu: So basically, you would say those are some of the objectives of the ANC?  Gen. George: Yes, we have our platform, and we will give you our platform. The ANC platform is the policy of the party.

Adhieu: What do you want to achieve with the ANC, and what legacy do you want to leave with the ANC?   Gen. George: The legacy is what you do and what you leave behind. When you form a party, you don’t form a party because you want to. As I told you, there are objectives which are there, and these objectives will bring the legacy. In the ANC, we want to leave highly informed cadres. We have a slogan ̶ we see, we feel, we reach. When we are seeing our people suffering, we feel ashamed because we are the leaders of these people, and as such, we must work hard. When we are feeling, we are feeling responsible for our people. If you are responsible for these people, you are not doing much for them. So what do you do? You have to double your efforts to reach them. How do you reach their hearts? You reach their hearts by doing a noble job for them. So our slogan is, we see, we feel, we reach. When we have reached their hearts, we tell them that the ANC is the real choice.

If you are responsible for these people, you are not doing much for them. So what do you do? You have to double your efforts to reach them. How do you reach their hearts? You reach their hearts by doing a noble job for them. So our slogan is, we see, we feel, we reach. When we have reached their hearts, we tell them that the ANC is the real choice.

Adhieu: That is a really good promotion. Gen. George: It is the real choice. Two, when we feel that we have reached the hearts of the people and we are the real choice, and we get what we want, we must really leave something behind, we as individuals, we as leaders, when we go, we have to be remembered.

Adhieu: Now, I will remember the ANC. Gen. George: Aiwa, it is the real choice.

Adhieu: I will ask you more about the ANC, outside of this interview. Now, these are just some follow up questions. Could you explain the difference in politics, during your time when you were very active, compared to today’s politics? How does it differ?   Gen. George: There is a big difference. The country has been divided into 32 states.

Adhieu: You didn’t agree with ten states, so 32 must be worse?   Gen. George: It is worse because, by that time, there were resources. With 32 states, there are no resources. You find someone sitting under a tree, he calls himself an office. He has no office.

Adhieu: Under the tree commissioner?  Gen. George: And he has nothing to deliver. Also, you go and find the government of the governor, of the state, walking on foot, no cars, no accommodation, no what. During our times, a minister has an office, a governor has an office. He has a budget, he has to deliver services to the people. Now, there is nothing. It is power. What is power if you cannot give services to the people? It is meaningless. I only believe in what is called local government. It is only the local government which can develop us. We need devolution of powers to the local government, and when federal arrangements come, they will rest on a concrete local government.

But now people are calling for federalism, but where are the cadres? Where are the spirit people? Who can do the job? You cannot be taught on the job. You are sacrificing people because of power. Now, tribalism has come up very seriously because of positions and this federal or decentralization arrangement, which has been done. Federal, or a decentralized system, does not mean you, as a son of that place, will be the only person who can deliver services to the people. Any person coming from any area can deliver services to the people, and they will not be involved in the petty politics of the area. The empowerment of the people to have their own administration does not mean that you are the person to deliver. This has been misunderstood by our people, and people continue to misunderstand it until we reach a dark tunnel, and that dark tunnel is coming.

Adhieu: My question on that line is, I think you also noticed that the quality of our politicians has changed. Some examples are those becoming commissioners without any prior experience. What are your suggestions for how this country can be run or managed?  Gen. George: The political appetite is so sharp. It is sharpening properly, and that is why a primary school leaver, can say, “I want to become a commissioner, I want to become a governor, I want to become a minister.” And that is why things are falling apart because of the inexperienced are creating more politicians in a country where resources are not yet tapped properly. When you come into the office, you just get relieved. Where do you go? Ma indak, you don’t have. You don’t have a profession where you can go and live on. So you will still like to come back and fight so that you become a politician. We have created a lot of politicians who are half-baked. That is our problem now. If you go to Tonj, your own state now, you have a lot of politicians.

If you ask them, what have you done in the position which you are in? He cannot tell you because now, positions have been made so that you do things for yourself, and not to serve the people. This is what is happening. I am completely dismayed, and I am completely against the creation of politicians who are outside of the parameters of parties. What is called the communities, they are taking up the work of political parties, and it becomes really dangerous.

Adhieu: Is it community politics that become personality politics?  Gen. George: Yes, which is very dangerous. Politics must be through political parties. Communities are only for development and other social problems in a given social group or community. Sometimes, they come and say, we are nominating this man to go, from where? What do you know about this man? He is not a party cadre. How do you nominate him? So our politics are in mess.

Adhieu: So, the only way for this country to be managed is to get out of this kind of politics?  Gen. George: Yes, we have to get into political parties. The only way forward is for the political parties to bring in their cadres, according to their knowledge. But if you go and you choose randomly, in a community, that is where things fall apart, and that is why we are not making headway.

Adhieu: Exactly. On that note, what advice would you give the politicians of this country and also the youth?  Gen. George: My advice is that we have gained our independence and the country which we fought for, for which we have lost lives and property. It would be ideal if all of us agreed on what I call national issues, which can promote existence in our country. Yes, there is where you come from, you may come from a community, you may come from a tribe, but a tribe cannot make you a leader and a community cannot make you a politician. You cannot come and ask for a position which brings people together when you are coming as a tribal politician. Everybody is entrenched in their tribe, which is endangering South Sudan. As leaders, we have to come out in a very big way to denounce tribalism. We are not denouncing tribe, but we are denouncing tribalism. Whoever wants to be a leader needs to denounce tribalism.  

Two, getting power should not be through violence. We should consider our people who fought all along with us, using their property, their children. We have to respect them. We have to respect their will. They are the only people who own power, and we must adhere to their will. Grabbing power through communal violence, or tribal violence or because of your tribe needs to be denounced properly. Let us be people of the South, talking one language and one voice. Then we will have no problem.

 Adhieu: Do you feel there was more unity during the time before independence?  Gen. George: I cannot tell you that there was a real unity among Southerners because also, the enemy was using some of the Southern tribes, dividing them. We Southerners, we have to make a 180-degree turn. We cannot practice what was practiced by our former rulers, our brothers in the North. If we do, we have not liberated ourselves.

Adhieu: Do you feel there was more unity during the time before independence?  Gen. George: I cannot tell you that there was a real unity among Southerners because also, the enemy was using some of the Southern tribes, dividing them. We Southerners, we have to make a 180-degree turn. We cannot practice what was practiced by our former rulers, our brothers in the North. If we do, we have not liberated ourselves.

Adhieu: I have one last question; it goes all the way back again. So you were a member of the National Congress Party. What years were you a member and also what role did you play in that party?  Gen. George: Yes, I was a member of the NCP. In the NCP, we had what is called the Southern Forum. That Southern Forum within the NCP was to deal with things which were exclusively to do with the South.

Adhieu: Would you say that the self-determination cause was on the table?  Gen. George: Yes, we also discussed it. Whenever there was a problem, we used to sit as a Southern Forum.

Adhieu: That is really amazing, I never knew a lot of these things. So when people read this interview, they will be very amazed. A lot of people are trying to link those who worked in the North, as those who had no intention of self-determination.  Gen. George: That is absolutely, what can I say, nonsense or irrelevant? In the beginning of the interview, I said all of us, when this movement started, people sat and divided the roles. If you don’t know the role which was assigned to X or Y, then you do not know why you were fighting.

Adhieu: That is true. The war had to be fought on all fronts.  Gen. George: Yes, and so the roles were divided. We came out peacefully, with minimal loss. If we all had gone to the movement, what would have become of us? We had to be with these people, and we managed to push through all that we could to help stabilize our people.

Adhieu: My final question now is because of what has happened in Sudan recently, do you think it will have an impact on the current peace process, particularly because Al-Bashir was brokering the peace agreement with Museveni in September last year? What do you think is the future of this country in terms of peace and security?  Gen. George: This is a good question. Well, Bashir, did a lot. He was the first Northerner to recognize that Southerners have a problem. All Northern politicians used to say the problem of the South is just a storm in a teacup. But when Bashir came, with his bravery, well, he decided to fight, but when he found that it was not peaceful, he had to make another move. I was the first person to take the letter to Baba Ginda in 1988. The first meeting of the SPLM, with the government, I was the one who initiated it. I went to Nigeria twice, to bring the letter to Baba Ginda. He was the president at the time, he welcomed it, that there should be a dialogue in Nigeria, Abuja I and Abuja II. He continued to push all the peace dialogues until he said, “I will be the first man to give my congratulations if you South succeed!” 

Which he actually did! When the South got independence, he was the first person to recognize South Sudan as an independent country. Two, although he [Bashir] did these things because of his own problems at home, still it is commendable that he did his best, and this relative peace that we are enjoying now is through Bashir. Those who are now in Khartoum, one of their slogans is that Omar Al-Bashir separated the South. We will not go back until the South comes back.

Adhieu: Oh, I think I have seen that one. The women were protesting and chanting. Gen. George: You saw it? Yes. So we Southerners also, we are observing critically, what will those who were holding out, and sloganeering that the South must come back, will it really be the voice of the government? So, with the going of Bashir. Well, we have nothing to say about it, it is the choice of the people. But I am happy that the government came out with a statement that they are going to honour all agreements. So we hope that this agreement is one of the agreements that is being honoured. So for us, we are observing what the next step by the government of South Sudan is.

Adhieu: Isn’t the ANC under the Other Political Parties?  Gen. George: Yes, we are OPP in the agreement. The ANC is a signatory to the agreement, and that is why we are really pushing hard. Some people think that there are certain areas or clauses within the agreement which can be maneuvered, but we say an agreement is an agreement. We, as the ANC, are with the agreement, in spirit and letter. No way out because we believe this is the last chance for us, and everyone must understand that. Either we remain as the South, or we go into fragmentation.

Adhieu: I’m pleased with this interview. I think you have covered so much; maybe there is more that you would like to add?  Gen. George: I am happy that Ramciel Magazine has traveled a long way to come and interview Southern leaders. We hope that this is not the last interview with us. We all hope that you will come back from time to time to conduct interviews, to know the positions of leaders in South Sudan. The magazine should encourage you to talk on politics, on the economy, and on social 

 

Interview By Adhieu Majok